#68 August 27, 2019

Container Camp, with Angie Maguire

Hosts: Craig Box, Adam Glick

Container Camp is a series of independent conferences, spanning three continents and in their fifth year. “Camp mother” Angie Maguire is the co-organiser, and is also the founder of Ladies of Code. She joins Adam, who is yet to attend a Camp, but actually goes camping, and Craig, who has spoken at Camps in London and Sydney, and prefers hotels.

Do you have something cool to share? Some questions? Let us know:

Chatter of the week

News of the week

CRAIG BOX: Hi, and welcome to the Kubernetes Podcast from Google. I'm Craig Box.

ADAM GLICK: And I'm Adam Glick.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

CRAIG BOX: One of the few joys of being on a very, very delayed flight is supposed to be that the road is clear as you like, if you're arriving well after midnight. I'm sure a lot of people out there will be listening to this show as they drive along the 101 highway in San Francisco. And I'd like to encourage those people to have a look around and see how many lanes of traffic there are. It's a big road.

There's normally at least five lanes in each direction. But no, after midnight, it's just down to one, really. So you get stuck in that traffic.

You think, all these beautiful empty lanes. Why couldn't I be driving in those? But no.

ADAM GLICK: Is it all construction?

CRAIG BOX: Well, it's hard to tell. I think there are pockets of people standing around who look like they could be constructing things one day. But there's just a lot of emptiness between those pockets.

ADAM GLICK: We were driving back from a camping trip this weekend, and noticed that the time to take the express lanes, they have these little signs in Seattle to tell you how long it takes to get places. And the time to take the express lanes and the time to take the regular lanes was exactly the same. And I was trying to decide is that a failure of the express lanes or absolute genius on civic planners that have come up with a system that is absolutely 100% balanced.

CRAIG BOX: Is it economical? Is it designed that you're meant to pay more to use the express lanes?

ADAM GLICK: No, they just skip a bunch of exits basically. If you want to skip downtown, you can get on the express lanes, and it skips all the way through downtown. The first place you can get off is after you're past downtown.

CRAIG BOX: Oh. How was the camping trip?

ADAM GLICK: It was wonderful. It's a great time of year in the Pacific Northwest to get out. And I saw a very interesting anthill that we'll have a link to a video I shot, in the show notes.

But I'm used to it anthills as little, small, one inch tall things that you might seen your driveway. And this one was about three to four feet tall. And I didn't realize it was an anthill till I got a lot closer to it. So check out the video. It's a fun zoom in on my surprise that I realized that it was actually a giant anthill.

CRAIG BOX: What did you think it might have been?

ADAM GLICK: I had no idea actually. It was a giant mound of something.

CRAIG BOX: Do you have badgers or rabbits where you are?

ADAM GLICK: Yes, but never that make mounds like that. I mean, it looks more like if you're used to what a beaver dam might look like. But it's a little taller than a beaver dam normally is, and made out of much smaller pieces, but like that kind of size.

CRAIG BOX: Were the ants in it larger than the average? Were they ants of unusual size?

ADAM GLICK: They were regular-sized ants. There was just an incredible amount of them. So we decided maybe we'd take all the food and everything, and we would seal that away at night, for fear that we'd wake up in the morning and it would all be gone, and the anthill won't be twice its size.

CRAIG BOX: Some people fear the bears. Adam and his family fear the ants.

[LAUGHS]

ADAM GLICK: Let's get to the news.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

ADAM GLICK: Late last week, VMware continued their buying spree, confirming that they are indeed buying Pivotal Software for $2.7 billion. They said the acquisition would accelerate their ability to transform the way enterprises build and deliver applications on Kubernetes, on any cloud. They also acquired the security firm Carbon Black for $2.1 billion, and serverless security startup Intrinsic with no terms disclosed.

CRAIG BOX: VMware's purchase of Pivotal was just in time for their annual VMworld Conference, where they made a number of Kubernetes-related announcements. Project Pacific is billed as a reimagining of Kubernetes and vSphere integration. It includes Kubernetes API server for VMware resources, letting you manage VMs and pods with the same interface. Each vSphere node now runs a 'spherelet', a VMware/kubelet hybrid, which lets you run either regular VMs or pod VMs, a lightweight pod that runs directly on the hypervisor on the ESXi kernel. Both of these are controlled with CRDs in a so-called supervisor cluster.

The cluster is an abstraction over VMware, rather than a conformant Kubernetes cluster, so there's also a service for creating guest clusters, which run in regular VMs. It's hard to explain without showing you a diagram, but try imagining a turducken, or in keeping with ancient Greek, an ouroboros. VMware had a containers on the hypervisor experiment called Project Bonneville, which was working on pod VMs as a concept as early as 2015. And they are saying that their technology eventually evolved into Project Pacific.

ADAM GLICK: Project Pacific is one part of VMware's newly announced Tanzu strategy for building, running, and managing applications. Building is covered by their Bitnami and Pivotal acquisitions. Running is covered by the aforementioned Project Pacific and their Pivotal Kubernetes Service, until Pacific is ready.

To manage clusters, VMware is introducing Tanzu Mission Control, a SaaS-based management service for Kubernetes clusters. Those clusters that are based on the open source cluster API, like PKS, will be able to have their node lifecycle controlled. Meanwhile, you'll be able to join any cluster and enjoy management features, including cluster health and diagnostics, security and configuration management, backup and restore, quota management, and resource utilization visualization.

CRAIG BOX: These projects are technical previews, and VMware would like to remind you that there is no commitment or obligation the technology preview features will become generally available.

ADAM GLICK: In other acquisition news, Splunk is diving feet-first into microservices monitoring with the acquisition of SignalFX. From the beginning, as a logging analytics company, Splunk has been adding additional application performance management features. And SignalFX's distributed tracing and monitoring platform will give them a fuller observability story for the low price of $1.05 billion.

CRAIG BOX: The 2019 "Accelerate State of DevOps Report," has been released by DevOps Research and Assessment, or DORA, the first report since they were acquired by Google Cloud in December. The report is the longest-running academically rigorous research investigation into the capabilities and practices that make DevOps and transformation effective. This year's report confirmed analysts' perception that DevOps is crossing the proverbial chasm, with the proportion of so-called elite performers almost tripling compared to last year.

It also makes the case that productivity supports work/life balance and reductions in burnout. So make sure your manager sees it. The 82-page report can be downloaded in exchange for your contact details.

ADAM GLICK: Red Hat announced the general availability of OpenShift Service Mesh, their integration of Istio, Kiali, and Jaeger The product automates installing these in your own clusters with three separate operators, built in an upstream open source project called Maistra. The package will be available for commercial consumers in their operator hub in the coming weeks. Integrations are also available for Red Hat 3scale API management platform.

CRAIG BOX: Version 1.6 of the Cilium network plugin for Kubernetes has been released. Support for NodePort services and host-based networking means Cilium can now be used as a complete replacement for kube-proxy. This lets you replace hundreds of IP tables rules with a hash table-based eBPF lookup, cutting time and CPU cost. Other new features include CID based storage, removing the need for a separate key value store.

ADAM GLICK: Now that GitHub Actions can run CI workflows, you might want to run end-to-end tests of your Kubernetes applications. Each worker agent has Docker available. And with Kubernetes in Docker, or kind, you can easily create a cluster with each action. Radu Matei from Microsoft has written up how to do this, and published a GitHub Actions template for this use case.

CRAIG BOX: Does developing on Kubernetes suck? In the yes camp, a blog post from Dan Miller of "TILT." Though as a company that promotes local communities development with no stress, "TILT" are perhaps a little biased.

In the no camp are the commentators on "Hacker News," who were critical of Miller's approach before degrading into the debate of the do you even need Kubernetes/of course you do type. You can read the article as a wish list of things to fix. And given the pace of tolling, it shouldn't take too long for that to happen.

ADAM GLICK: Google Cloud has introduced the Cloud Run Button, a one-click method to deploy your code to the hosted Knative service designed to be added to the README of your source code. When a visitor clicks the button, it opens a Cloud Shell on their GCD account, which packages the application source code as a container image, pushes it to Google Container Registry, and deploys it on Cloud Run. Cloud Run Button works with any repository that has a Docker file, or that can be built using cloud native build packs.

CRAIG BOX: Finally, the CNCF have had 17 Google Summer of Code students working on projects this year. Coding has just completed, and the list of the projects can now be found on the CNCF blog. Our condolences to the student who is working on rkt.

ADAM GLICK: And that's the news.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

CRAIG BOX: Angie Maguire is the self-described mother of Container Camp, a series of worldwide conferences on container technology. She is also the founder of Ladies of Code and events director at Protocol Labs. Welcome to the show, Angie.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Hello. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

ADAM GLICK: You started out in film and television. How did you end up in the tech industry?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: By complete accident is the honest answer. My first job was in London. I worked for a digital agency who had a number of Ruby developers working for them.

And through working there, I learned to code, and just became really excited and interested by the industry. Started running meetups and events. And here I find myself today working in all sorts of amazing and wonderful areas.

ADAM GLICK: What inspired you to start running tech events?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: I fell into it. I just really enjoy being around people, connecting with people [INAUDIBLE] times in a lot of events to start with. And I have always been the person that hosts dinner parties, and loves being the life and soul of these things. So I'm very organized.

So it just came about. My job at that time was as head of communications. So it was a natural offset of that as well, and it developed into more full-time profession, if you like.

CRAIG BOX: Tell us a little bit about Ladies of Code and how that organization came about.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: So similar-- around the time, I was working at Mint, this is about 2011. And I was dabbling in code, very much still a side thing for me. I never quite got good enough.

But I find that a lot of the meetups I was going to, there weren't a lot of women and there wasn't a lot of representation. And I just really was excited to bring amazing technical women together. Put together a meetup. Thought hopefully a couple of people turned up. I think the first one, 11 people turned up.

And we now have nine chapters across the UK and Europe, and we're about to expand into Australia. So yeah, and this is eight years later. So this really wonderful and exciting and a great community.

ADAM GLICK: And what about the United States?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: But there are lots of groups in the United States already. One of the things I never want to do is-- people are already doing great stuff, let's support them, let's collaborate, let's get involved with each other. But let's not start with stuff for the sake of starting stuff.

And that's always been my philosophy. It's like, let's support each other. But there's no point in starting stuff for starting stuff's sake.

So yeah, there are lots of really amazing groups, like Women Who Code, Black Girls Code. And we actually started around the same time, so it's quite funny that we're British, and we're called Ladies of Code. I thought that fit very well with all the British.

But yes, so there are so many other brilliant groups out there that need support as well. It just so happens that geographically, I was based in the UK. A couple of our community members moved to different parts of Europe, and have taken Ladies of Code with them. And then in Australia, a similar kind of story. We had a couple of people move over there and say let's get it kicked off.

CRAIG BOX: Container Camp today is a single-track conference with a real community feeling. I've had the opportunity to speak at events in London and in Sydney. But it obviously started off much smaller than this. Can you tell us a little bit about, behind the scenes, the original story of Container Camp?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Container Camp started to tie many different conferences and camps. It came about as a group of friends who were really interested in a particular technology-- in this case containers. Got together I guess over lunch or coffee.

CRAIG BOX: Or burning wood.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Or burning wood.

[LAUGHS]

And said to each other this would be fun to bring some of the people who are developing this technology to a forum. Let's bring them to London and see what it's all about it and talk about it. However, they didn't have so much experience organizing events. And it turned out it was maybe a little bit harder than they expected.

And here's me, running about London, organizing conferences and meetups. I knew a couple of them. And they pulled me in and said, look, we're putting this together. But we'd love some help. So I jumped into it.

And I just find I love the community. Again, it's so interesting, knew lot of people who are part of it as well. So that was a lot of fun.

And after the first event, the folks who put it together said, well, that was great. But we're not going to carry it forwards. So I decided that I wanted to get their blessing. And here we are, five or six years later, still running Container Camp.

CRAIG BOX: So when was that first event?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: 2014.

CRAIG BOX: Why a camp?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: There was something about a camp instead of a conf. For me, conf resonates with being more serious. Camps, you really get this idea of collaboration, open-- sitting around a campfire, lots of different voices being heard, a bit more casual to be honest.

Craig, you've known me for a while now. I'm definitely the least formal of all people. And for me, a Container Camp reflects that. If I'm the mother of Container Camp, it should be somewhere where you can come, be comfortable.

It doesn't matter what level you're at. You can be a newbie completely to containers. You can be one of the original developers of Kubernetes or Docker. But you're all on the same level.

There's a democratization, if you like, in the idea of a camp. So I like that and have run with that ever since. It seems like every event I organize now is called "Something" Camp, so it's kind of ridiculous it's gone further.

CRAIG BOX: How do you keep that feeling of a few people sitting around telling stories as the events grow over time.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Well, they grow. But actually, we limit the numbers in order to keep that kind of feeling. We've also got a very, very successful scholarship program. So making sure that we have lots of voices represented, whether that's students or people who are underrepresented in tech currently. I mean, I have so much respect and love for people who are running absolutely massive conferences because it's so much work.

And for me, in a selfish way as well, I love getting to say hi to everybody that Container Camp. I love seeing people come back year after year, and having that kind of intimacy is really important for me. So we keep it small. And also, it's a resource thing as well. There's only myself and my co-organizer, Chris, behind the scenes.

Unfortunately, we can't really scale too much further without bringing other folks in. But we try and keep a balance and make it super-accessible as well. I want new people to be coming every year. I want people to be discovering containers for the first time and the different technologies therein. And that's so exciting to watch that and see that develop.

ADAM GLICK: I haven't personally been able to attend to Container Camp yet, but I hope to someday. Can you tell me what it's like to be there.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: In the runup, we'll stay in touch with everyone. So we post the community blog posts, where you get a bit of insight into who the speakers are, where they come from, how they've gotten involved. We also profiled the local meetup organizers. So as much as Container Camp is very exciting and a great crescendo, if you like, throughout the year, there are people who are there every single month doing the hard work, really building the community.

So, like, you've got the Docker user groups, the Kubernetes user groups, all of these different areas. And so we like to profile them and give them a shoutout for all of their awesome work throughout the year. So before you get there, you've already met a few of the folks that you're going to meet when you get to the actual event itself. When you arrive, you are greeted by myself and some of my lovely team.

And then we love the hallway track. Some of the most important conversations I've had conferences are in the hallway. That's where you're going to meet people. So we really encourage a bit of that kind of casual conversation time at the beginning of the day. And we make sure there's plenty of breaks and opportunities for that kind of cross-pollination, if you like, and also so people can meet the speakers.

One thing that I always find quite weird is when people are put on a pedestal, and you don't feel like you can approach people. So we make it so that if you see a speaker, go on up to them, go and say hi. And everyone is just so lovely.

One of the things we've been just really lucky-- and I think it's just actually the container community in general, people are so nice. People are so willing to share their knowledge and be open and answer difficult questions. And that's such a lovely thing. So you come into good vibes.

And then we go straight into the conference. And the conference is single-track. It's always been that way, because we want everyone to be part of a shared experience.

Again, selfish on my part. Maybe I should change, but I'm not going to. Keeping everyone as part of the same experience. And even if you're at different levels, you're going to learn something from every talk. Every speaker have has something to share and something to give.

So in London, it's a one-day conference. In Australia, it's a two-day conference. We also have a workshop day as well prior to that. So if anyone needs to level up, or they want to learn about the latest tools and technologies, they can do that as well.

ADAM GLICK: How do you decide where and when to hold the events?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Well, the first one, as we talked about, I had no say over it. It just so happened to be in my backyard. So London became the home of Container Camp, if you like.

Then I looked at a couple of different strategies, I suppose. One was I looked at where the majority of the companies who were developing container tools and technology were based, and that was San Francisco. So it felt like it made sense to go there, and have a really amazing lineup of speakers and connect directly.

And that, in a sense, was fantastic, because we got to know a lot of people really early on. Those friendships remain today. So we did that for a couple of years.

And then the feeling was, actually, we're very unique in the sense that we're self-governed, we're not answering to anybody. So we looked across the world at different communities who were evolving, but maybe not served by a conference. And Australia came on our radar.

We spoke to a lot of the local organizers there. They were so excited at the prospect of having a Container Camp from Australia. So we decided to switch our focus from the US to Australia. And at the moment, we're discussing potentially some new countries and territories, and speaking to a few people in those places to make sure that it's the right fit.

ADAM GLICK: You haven't been in North America for several years. Why?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: We actually had two in San Francisco early on. We are potentially going to come back to New York. I'm actually going to be going to New York next Friday, and spending a lot of time there and chatting with some folks.

Why not the Americas? Again, resources, like there's only so much. There's only me and Chris, and we both have full-time jobs outside of this. But obviously, I'm running a non-profit as well. So it's a case of just making sure that we don't burn ourselves out, and that we also produce really high-quality events that already exist, that we're still doing a great job with those.

I don't want to do things half-heartedly. If I'm going to do it, it's going to be absolutely awesome. So it's just making sure that we have the time and the energy to do it properly.

CRAIG BOX: What does it take to make an independent conference different and compelling in a world of free vendor-sponsored events?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: I think it comes down to a few different things. I think it's about providing a platform for new voices. That's always been really important to me. It's not just having the same kind of pitches.

So we have a no pitching rule at Container Camp. That is very important. When you're coming, you should come to talk about things that you're very passionate about. Talk about the tools that you've been building.

Open source is a huge part of Container Camp. As you'll know, Craig, like, we often have announcements and pleas for more contributors. So we're really plugged in to that side of things as well. And so new voices is a big thing.

We've had a lot of speakers who are now headlining huge mega-camps who started at Container Camp. So that's wonderful to see as well. Hopefully, we're introducing this stream of amazing new developers to wider audiences.

So I think that that's part of it. Choosing unusual talks as well. We talk about the future of container technology, and that's quite a wide area, I feel like.

So we've had some amazing talks from people at Kaggle, who talked about data science and containers, and just using interesting case studies. Monzon came and spoke last year in Australia, and talked about banking and some of the very honest difficulties that they've had. So I think that's it. I think choosing talks at maybe other conferences wouldn't because they maybe have more of a set idea of what can and can't be done.

So yeah, I think that's it. Keeping the content really interesting, new voices, and just making sure that the community is involved as well. The local community, they often are just wonderful in terms of giving us ideas around what that particular community needs at that particular time.

And as you know yourself, different places are at a different part in that journey. So the US is obviously really far ahead. You've got a lot of the main developers of those technologies based there. Australia is a little bit further behind, like user groups weren't starting up there until about two or three years ago. So it's good to just be very reactive and very close to those communities to really understand what their needs are.

CRAIG BOX: Most conferences start with a call for papers process. What's yours like and how is it different to some of the others out there.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: We do exactly the same thing. We actually have a mix. So we curate some of the talks.

Probably about 25% are chosen beforehand. Usually, those are keynotes, and it just is about making sure that we are able to get people in time. So just being respectful of speaker's time and the schedules and things.

And then the rest, the other 75%, is a call for proposals, and they are evaluated by ex-speakers. So we have a blind voting process, where people who have spoken to Container Camp in the past. There's usually five to six of us, or five, six. I'm also on that committee.

I shouldn't have said that. Send me presents! But, yeah, there's five to six of us. And there's a blind voting process, and basically the most interesting and compelling talks go through. And that's how it works.

CRAIG BOX: Some conferences, especially those where you're paying to attend, don't like to do blind voting processes, because they're explicitly trying to get famous people on the agenda in order to get people to pay to come to their event. Is that something that you've had to balance?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: No, that's just not interesting to me. Again, if we went down that path, then we would have real issues, I think, in terms of one of my main aims, which is bringing new voices to the platform. No, I'm not interested in that.

Container Camp, that's not what it's about. It's wonderful when we have folks who have been very instrumental in the development of container technology. But they're just as important as the people who have done their first pull request the year before.

And we're all doing this together. We're all developing it together. So everyone should have an equal platform to do that.

So yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. Everyone please submit proposals. But I'm open to everyone doing it. But no, that wouldn't be the way I'd like to move forward. I think we'll keep it.

ADAM GLICK: How do you balance the desires for your sponsors, obviously, to have certain placement in events, and the desires of what the community may be looking for?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: We've been really, really lucky in that respect, because we've just been very upfront with our sponsors and very honest. We do need sponsorship. It pays for the event.

However, we don't share attendee details. That's always been something that we felt very strongly about. And we know, as people who attend conferences and as developers, we understand our audience. And like I said, we're in very close contact with the community members.

And our sponsors are brilliant. They get that we're maybe a bit quirky in that sense. But I think they're so much part of the conference as well. Our sponsors come along like they are members of the community as well. They're not just there as sponsors.

And they're cool by association, obviously. We're a cool conference. But yeah, we've been really, really lucky to work with some absolutely amazing companies and startups, who have just been really understanding of the kind of, I guess, vibe of Container Camp.

CRAIG BOX: A lot of people on the conference circuit, myself included, are paid to attend and speak by their employees. How do you balance the voices of those people who obviously, again, have pressing reason to want to attend these things with the local audiences and people who are possibly underrepresented in those communities?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Our scholarship program is paramount to that. There is a kind of unwritten rule that everyone who wants to attend Container Camp should be able to attend Container Camp. So our community organizers are given comped tickets to thank them for their hard work throughout the year. We have a diversity scholarship program, which offers tickets to underrepresented groups.

We also have a college partnership program. So we speak to different universities in the local area and say, look, we've got x amount of tickets. I'm so passionate about that.

In Australia we partner with DevOps Girls, who are just this amazing organization. And every year, there's such a strong show from them, and that's wonderful, that won't change. The sponsors pay for the conference. We're not as reliant upon ticket revenue, so we're able to do things like that. We are able to bring in as many people as possible.

ADAM GLICK: How do you feel about the Kubernetes Forums that were recently announced by the CNCF?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: It's interesting. So actually, it's something we talked about with Container Camp. Because in Australia, we go between Sydney and Melbourne every year. And we discussed the idea of, well, maybe we just do Sydney and then Melbourne.

And it was felt that it was a lot to ask of the speakers. People have already flown such a long way. I think for me personally, I've been telling you chaps, I've been flying a lot recently. And the idea of getting on another tin can fills me with horror.

So it felt like a lot to ask. And even doing one conference talk takes a lot of you. So for us, it wasn't the right fit.

I have tons of admiration for the organizers. That's a lot to put together. So good on them.

But yeah, I'm excited to understand how it's played out. I haven't heard any feedback or anything yet. So it'll be interesting to see how it works.

But yeah, it's always great to try these things and experiment. But we've got to keep in mind that there are people at the heart of it who should get lots of sleep. And we should try and make sure that no one gets burnt out.

CRAIG BOX: You hinted before at some other camps. Are you able to use the networks that you've built in the industry, and the relationship you have with vendors and so on, to branch out and do other topics, other than containers? Is that something that you and Chris are interested in?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: At the moment, the other camp I've just run was called IPFS Camp, which is InterPlanetary File Systems. And it's all around the decentralized web. And so you can understand that the crossover there maybe with some vendors is not as--

[LAUGHTER]

It doesn't align so much. I think relationships in general, there have been some people who are in both sides. But yes, I'm so excited about emerging technologies. That's the area that I really, like, get a buzz from. And it's all interlinked to a certain extent.

So yeah, I think it's something that we'd like to explore more. But again, we're just super-busy. But if other people want to explore these things, and they want advice about how to do it, we'd definitely be open to helping people, and connecting people and things.

That's one of the things I really enjoyed doing, that we can all help each other. So yeah, but not yet. But potentially, that's something that would be really great.

ADAM GLICK: Any plans for more events or camps to come up?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: You know me. Of course there is, yes. So we're actually taking a bit of a break in September. We usually have our UK event. And what we've decided to do is step back and just evaluate the landscape, and have a real think about how we can move forward next year.

One of the things that we've talked about is maybe building out some educational tools or some kind of platform, because we've got so many great videos from Container Camp. And we'd love to find a way of maybe getting them out there a bit more. Yes, more camps next year certainly. But yeah, and Ladies of Code is a side project, but something that's very, very close to my heart. So I'd love to try and find more time to spend on that, and maybe getting some great events running in different places as well.

So yes, there's always events. Wherever I am, there will be an event nearby. But yeah, definitely, we're really excited for next year.

But we're in that lovely stage where we're just coming up with all sorts of madcap ideas. There's a whiteboard at home that has no spare space on it. So yeah, definitely keep an eye out.

CRAIG BOX: You're a self-described digital nomad. What does that mean?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Well, it's a movement of sorts. It's being location-independent. For the last five years, Chris and I, we had an apartment in London. And we gave up that apartment and hired hand luggage, and decided to go schlepping around the world, I think, as our parents described it, with our laptops.

And so we're both incredibly lucky. I was running my own company at the time. Chris was also running his own company, and we were both contracting remotely for a bunch of folks.

So we've been incredibly just so lucky. We've seen the road. We've traveled a lot.

Yeah, I'm now kind of based in Lisbon. But that is the loosest terminology you will ever have, because I think I've traveled more this year than I ever have. So yeah, just being location-independent, having flexibility and freedom to work from wherever. And it's been absolutely amazing. And if anyone wants learn more about that, I always love to talk about it.

CRAIG BOX: But you're not in Lisbon as we speak to you today?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Oh, no. No, no, no. Week to week I seem to be somewhere different at the moment. So I'm in Berlin attending Web3 Summit with Protocol Labs, and just learning a bit more about blockchain and talking about the different projects that we're working on.

CRAIG BOX: What does vacationing look like for someone who is constantly traveling for work?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: I actually took a few days off last week for the first time this year. So that was glorious. Vacation looks like Netflix to me. I am a self-confessed Netflix addict. So there's a lot of relaxing, reading books. I spent some time with some friends on the beach. I'm Scottish, so most of my time was spent under a parasol with factor 50. But that was really wonderful. I think just being away from my laptop for a couple of days, and really taking time to switch off and disconnect.

ADAM GLICK: Any great Netflix shows you'd recommend to people?

ANGIE MAGUIRE: How long have you got? There's so many good ones right now. So I don't know if you like glassblowing, but there's an amazing glassblowing show at the moment. And I am obsessed.

"[Blown Away]" is great. The glassblowing show. "Mindhunter" series two is out. It's incredible. So check that out.

What else do I love? So many good documentaries. Anything by Ava Duvernay.

"When They See Us" is her latest Netflix offering, and it's just incredible. It's about the Central Park Five. Absolutely, if you want to watch one thing on Netflix, that's the thing to watch. But yeah, you can see I covered a lot of ground on my vacation.

ADAM GLICK: Totally. And if you love glassblowing, and if you ever make it out here to Seattle, you should totally check out the Chihuly Museum.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: Oh, amazing. Yes, that would be awesome.

ADAM GLICK: Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Angie.

ANGIE MAGUIRE: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

ADAM GLICK: You can find the Angie on Twitter @lalamaguire, or on the web at container.camp. You can catch all the awesome talks from Container Camp at youtube.com/containercamp.

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CRAIG BOX: Thanks for listening. As always, if you enjoyed the show, please help us spread the word and tell a friend. If you have any feedback for us, you can find us on Twitter at @kubernetespod, or reach us by email, kubernetespodcast@google.com

ADAM GLICK: You can also check out our website at kubernetespodcast.com where you'll find transcripts and show notes. Until next time, take care.

CRAIG BOX: See you next week.

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